Go Back   High Impact Halo Forum and Fansite Non-Halo Discussion Forum Yap and Blabber
Yap and Blabber Non-Halo, non-gaming discussion topics are welcome here. Beware of the ogre.
Notices
 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old   
Phasmorphage's Avatar
Phasmorphage Offline
Just assume I'm drunk
 
Posts: 6,272
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tripping ALL the balls
Semi-Intelligent Discussion: Animal Rights - 03-16-2011 , 07:19 PM


Semi-intelligent since a lot of people left so I guess we should allow semi-intelligent responses vs just intelligent ones.


An issue was raised in my Critical Thinking class regarding Animal Rights. Why do we bother giving animals rights?

My view is it that it is all purely arbitrary. We think cats and dogs are cute so we don't like it when they get hurt, but have little qualms about beheading chickens, shooting cows, or stepping on spiders. People get all worked up over hunting without bothering to eat the meat, but why?

What makes a rat different than a deer or any other animal? And why do animals even deserve rights in the first place? It's not like they're intelligent enough to do anything about it. If our impact on the ecosystem is killing them off, then maybe that's the way it has to be. Why should we as humans bend over backwards so some stupid animal can walk into a road and get hit by a car anyways?

Anyway, what do you think

  #2  
Old   
ferrari's Avatar
ferrari Offline
DELETE COOKIES?!
 
Posts: 2,102
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Multi Monitor Multitasking!!!1!
Send a message via AIM to ferrari
03-16-2011 , 08:16 PM


I believe that any sentient creature should be revered enough that it deserves to not be in pain.

I also believe that any sapient being has an intrinsic right to life and freedom from suffering.

Mistreating animals is wrong for some of the same reasons why slavery is wrong, even though both are unable to control their own lives.

  #3  
Old   
Nofirefrog's Avatar
Nofirefrog Offline
Hey There
 
Posts: 6,649
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Arkansas
03-16-2011 , 08:18 PM


Some people do get upset by killing of livestock. You've already started generalizing, which isn't good for your class.

Anyway, why do we need to kill animals? Or harm them? Are we not intelligent enough to find alternatives? And what about protecting those who aren't able to protect themselves? Ought we start throwing infants about because they aren't smart enough to save themselves?



Nofirefrog


Years. YEARS. That's what I've given this site. It's been hilarious and maddening, mind numbing and thought provoking, moments of astonishment and headaches. The best thing this site has given me one the best community on the 'net. HIH will always be unparalleled.

Thanks for everything, you will be sorely missed.



Nofirefrog

  #4  
Old   
laser's Avatar
laser Offline
 
Posts: 2,479
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
03-16-2011 , 08:29 PM


Post 1 =

Posts 2 & 3 =

  #5  
Old   
Phasmorphage's Avatar
Phasmorphage Offline
Just assume I'm drunk
 
Posts: 6,272
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tripping ALL the balls
03-16-2011 , 08:55 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrari View Post
I believe that any sentient creature should be revered enough that it deserves to not be in pain.

I also believe that any sapient being has an intrinsic right to life and freedom from suffering.

Mistreating animals is wrong for some of the same reasons why slavery is wrong, even though both are unable to control their own lives.
So are you saying that we should not kill cows + chickens for food? Also, what about insects and reptiles? None of these animals are self-aware enough to even understand concepts like freedom, whereas in slavery we were enslaving our fellow human beings simply based on the color of their skin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noff
Some people do get upset by killing of livestock. You've already started generalizing, which isn't good for your class.
I just wanted to get a discussion going because I'm liable to be persuaded either way. I don't really have a concrete opinion one way or another, as I subscribe to the "don't hurt cats/dogs because they're cute" side.

Quote:
Anyway, why do we need to kill animals? Or harm them? Are we not intelligent enough to find alternatives? And what about protecting those who aren't able to protect themselves? Ought we start throwing infants about because they aren't smart enough to save themselves
well, this wouldn't be good for my class either ;)

We kill animals because we eat them. Chicken is goddamn delicious, and it's all relatively easy to acquire. In fact we've been doing so since we became omnivores. Why bother changing now? What do we owe to animals? Lions don't feel remorse when they hunt down gazelles so why should we feel guilty about making the process more efficient?

Also, we don't kill infants because we're emotionally attached to them as they are members of our species and our offspring, so that simply wouldn't make any sense from a biological perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laser
herp derp
thanks for contributing

  #6  
Old   
laser's Avatar
laser Offline
 
Posts: 2,479
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
03-16-2011 , 10:07 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmorphage View Post
thanks for contributing
Why so snotty? Those two guys said pretty much everything I would've said had I been the first reply, so no need to do anything besides give approval to them, and disapproval to you for your heartless "animals have no soul" attitude.

If I must better justify my disapproval of you, I follow a belief of there being different classes of intelligence, none superior to the others. This applies to all living beings.

In other words, IQ doesn't matter to me. I think every living being has something to contribute to this planet in one way or another, but most certainly NOT in the sense of existing just to support other supposedly *higher* beings by becoming food or pets.

  #7  
Old   
Phasmorphage's Avatar
Phasmorphage Offline
Just assume I'm drunk
 
Posts: 6,272
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tripping ALL the balls
03-16-2011 , 10:17 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
Why so snotty? Those two guys said pretty much everything I would've said had I been the first reply, so no need to do anything besides give approval to them, and disapproval to you for your heartless "animals have no soul" attitude.

If I must better justify my disapproval of you, I follow a belief of there being different classes of intelligence, none superior to the others. This applies to all living beings.

In other words, IQ doesn't matter to me. I think every living being has something to contribute to this planet in one way or another, but most certainly NOT in the sense of existing just to support other supposedly *higher* beings by becoming food or pets.
Statements 1 & 2 =

Statement 3=


I'm trying to promote a discussion here.


Although I never stated that "animals don't have souls", I find it hardly relevant to include any sort of spiritual belief here, as some people don't believe in such things.

Are you saying that we're not superior to animals? Why not? We're more intelligent, we've built a society, language, culture, art, we've been to space, and although we can't seem to stop killing each other, we show a great deal of empathy to one another. In fact, we're so powerful that we are actually having this discussion on an internet forum connecting us around the entire globe. If that doesn't justify superiority I'm not sure what would.

  #8  
Old   
laser's Avatar
laser Offline
 
Posts: 2,479
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
03-17-2011 , 01:09 AM


^ I've already explained (unless to you didn't quite get what I meant by "different classes of intelligence") that I believe just because we have stuff like technology, complex language, and forward thinking, doesn't mean we're automatically the bosses.

All living beings have the right to be independent of each other, no matter what forces can be put upon them.

Nature was here before us. What right do we have to take it for ourselves?

To put it another way, just because we CAN do something, doesn't mean we should. Slavery? Preemptive war? Nuclear bombs?

IMO, We will have reached our zenith when we can live in harmony with nature...

  #9  
Old   
Phasmorphage's Avatar
Phasmorphage Offline
Just assume I'm drunk
 
Posts: 6,272
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tripping ALL the balls
03-17-2011 , 02:25 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
^ I've already explained (unless to you didn't quite get what I meant by "different classes of intelligence") that I believe just because we have stuff like technology, complex language, and forward thinking, doesn't mean we're automatically the bosses.

All living beings have the right to be independent of each other, no matter what forces can be put upon them.

Nature was here before us. What right do we have to take it for ourselves?

To put it another way, just because we CAN do something, doesn't mean we should. Slavery? Preemptive war? Nuclear bombs?

IMO, We will have reached our zenith when we can live in harmony with nature...
But didn't nature also create us, and in fact our natural instincts ARE to kill everything. It's only recently that we abolished slavery and have started to seriously look at what it means to be human and our attitude towards the world.

Also, all of the things you have listed were directed at other humans and were always done with the best intentions. Slavery brought us economic gain and labor, war brought us territory and often spread culture, without which nothing would have been as advanced as it is today. WWI sparked an intense industrial revolution that created many jobs and caused a lot of gain for many countries involved, despite the horrific casualties.


I just don't see why we should grant a raccoon the same rights as a fully matured human being capable of expressing itself in ways animals can never comprehend.


Although I would never disagree with the fact that we treat many animals inhumanely (the word itself is an indicator, showing that we treat them in ways we would not want to treat other humans). But our reasons for doing so are rather arbitrary

  #10  
Old   
Stockwell's Avatar
Stockwell Offline
RaaaawwwWRRRR!!!
 
Posts: 1,179
Join Date: Apr 2007
03-17-2011 , 04:08 AM


No.

7char

  #11  
Old   
widdly scuds Offline
 
Posts: 32
Join Date: Dec 2010
03-17-2011 , 05:02 AM


Directed at nobody in particular because I can't be assed to read the thread:
I let a field mouse run around my basement all winter because it got in on its own to escape the cold and famine. That field mouse is smart. I watched a video recently of crows near a driving school in Japan that have learned to wait for the crosswalk lights, walk into an inersection, place a hard nut on the pavement, return to the sidewalk, watch a car run over the nut, wait for the crosswalk lights, and eat the cracked nut. Those crows are smart. I have personally thrown a fish back into a lake and watched it bite my hook again moments later. That fish is dumb, and I will not feel the slightest twinge of remorse in cooking and eating that fish.
I do not go out of my way to be an arsonskie to animals. I will also not go out of my way to protect animals. We are animals, and animals eat animals. Yes, I am aware of the way domesticated livestock are treated. I am aware of how domesticated livestock are treated in the first world, rather than the third world methods that are documented in PETA propaganda; cow is born, cow is raised in captivity, cow is fed frequently for maximum girth, cow is killed quickly via stunbox, cow is quartered, I eat cow. Meanwhile a South American anaconda crushes a capybara's ribcage and swallows it whole in the throes of death. I am fine with this, and fine with you not being fine with this, so long as you are quiet about it.

Then again, my stance may be biased, as I would cook and eat a vegan if they weren't so malnourished.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc

  #12  
Old   
laser's Avatar
laser Offline
 
Posts: 2,479
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
03-17-2011 , 05:03 AM


Doesn't matter what supposed "benefits" those things may have brought us. Odds are, without them, human society would've evolved quicker.

And if nature created us, shouldn't we return the favour by co-existing with it, or even help it grow if we have the ability (which we do)?

@ Stockwell: Please do shut up.

@ widdly scuds: Animals kill other animals either because their minds are hardwired to protect their territory or because they need that source of food to survive. Humans can recognize that violence is bad & find alternatives, and we haven't HAD to kill animals for food in quite a while...

  #13  
Old   
widdly scuds Offline
 
Posts: 32
Join Date: Dec 2010
03-17-2011 , 05:41 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
@ widdly scuds: Animals kill other animals either because their minds are hardwired to protect their territory or because they need that source of food to survive. Humans can recognize that violence is bad & find alternatives, and we haven't HAD to kill animals for food in quite a while...
If our brains were not also naturally geared toward violence we as a race would not have most of the problems we have now. Also, football hockey rugby boxing MMA paintball etc.
And no, we don't have to kill animals. By that logic, no animal has to kill animals; there's plenty of vegetation lying around, and carcases from other causes, and some less savory members of our race have shown that it's possible to live on that alone. But the thing is, you're delicious. We don't HAVE to kill animals in the same sense that we don't have to smoke or breed. It's a choice, and I choose delicious.

  #14  
Old   
Shoe's Avatar
Shoe Offline
Bowl Reaper
 
Posts: 3,368
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: QuestionableContent.net
Send a message via Skype™ to Shoe
03-17-2011 , 10:47 AM


All of this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmorphage View Post
But didn't nature also create us, and in fact our natural instincts ARE to kill everything. It's only recently that we abolished slavery and have started to seriously look at what it means to be human and our attitude towards the world.

Also, all of the things you have listed were directed at other humans and were always done with the best intentions. Slavery brought us economic gain and labor, war brought us territory and often spread culture, without which nothing would have been as advanced as it is today. WWI sparked an intense industrial revolution that created many jobs and caused a lot of gain for many countries involved, despite the horrific casualties.


I just don't see why we should grant a raccoon the same rights as a fully matured human being capable of expressing itself in ways animals can never comprehend.


Although I would never disagree with the fact that we treat many animals inhumanely (the word itself is an indicator, showing that we treat them in ways we would not want to treat other humans). But our reasons for doing so are rather arbitrary
and none of this

Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
@ widdly scuds: Animals kill other animals either because their minds are hardwired to protect their territory or because they need that source of food to survive. Humans can recognize that violence is bad & find alternatives, and we haven't HAD to kill animals for food in quite a while...
EDIT: My bad, just remembered this is ID. Will update with something more contributing after school.


Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads.


Goodbye HIH. I will always love you. I hope the day comes when I can delete this from my signature. That'll mean we're back in business.

You'll always have a special place in my childhood and in my heart.

-Shoe

  #15  
Old   
laser's Avatar
laser Offline
 
Posts: 2,479
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
03-17-2011 , 06:29 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by widdly scuds View Post
If our brains were not also naturally geared toward violence we as a race would not have most of the problems we have now. Also, football hockey rugby boxing MMA paintball etc.
And no, we don't have to kill animals. By that logic, no animal has to kill animals; there's plenty of vegetation lying around, and carcases from other causes, and some less savory members of our race have shown that it's possible to live on that alone. But the thing is, you're delicious. We don't HAVE to kill animals in the same sense that we don't have to smoke or breed. It's a choice, and I choose delicious.
Children's entertainer Fred Penner once said something along the lines of "If you give kids schlock, they'll eat it".

Violent sports aren't necessarily popular because of their intrinsic qualities. It could very well be from the level that they are promoted.

If the Indian cricket league was suddenly on network TV every Monday night, and football was only on free-to-air satellite, I have a good feeling that the network wouldn't lose a single cent in advertising revenue.

And do you not understand the concept of "HAVE to"? Certain animals live in an ecosystem where they CAN'T LIVE without killing other animals.

Also, your examples of smoking and breeding have no bearing on the topic. Neither one inherently affects animals.

As for "delicious", many popular forms of meat are unhealthy. Try subsisting on liver without dousing in it sugar-laced sauce...

  #16  
Old   
ferrari's Avatar
ferrari Offline
DELETE COOKIES?!
 
Posts: 2,102
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Multi Monitor Multitasking!!!1!
Send a message via AIM to ferrari
03-17-2011 , 09:45 PM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phasmorphage View Post
So are you saying that we should not kill cows + chickens for food? Also, what about insects and reptiles? None of these animals are self-aware enough to even understand concepts like freedom, whereas in slavery we were enslaving our fellow human beings simply based on the color of their skin
What I was saying is that neither group (slaves or lower forms of life) had power over how we treated them, yet they still have intrinsic value. I also never precluded the notion of taking a life, as doing so would also imply notions about warfare and the natural order of life being immoral.

Cows and chickens are hopefully not painfully murdered when we kill them for food.
This also brings up the point of huge industrius chicken farms. Watch the movie Food Inc and related for more information.

  #17  
Old   
Orange Soda King's Avatar
Orange Soda King Offline
Mongolian Contortionist
 
Posts: 1,784
Join Date: Apr 2006
03-17-2011 , 09:47 PM


I don't have much authority/expertise on this knowledge, but I have heard that hunting helps with population control and balance of animals in the environment. For example, if there are too many deer, than whatever the consume may be eaten all up.

As for dogs and cats... Certain animals in our society more domestic than others, and generally we are less inclined to kill them than animals we hunt.

  #18  
Old   
ferrari's Avatar
ferrari Offline
DELETE COOKIES?!
 
Posts: 2,102
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Multi Monitor Multitasking!!!1!
Send a message via AIM to ferrari
03-18-2011 , 01:15 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King View Post
I don't have much authority/expertise on this knowledge, but I have heard that hunting helps with population control and balance of animals in the environment. For example, if there are too many deer, than whatever the consume may be eaten all up.

As for dogs and cats... Certain animals in our society more domestic than others, and generally we are less inclined to kill them than animals we hunt.
Asian cultures eat dog/cat...

  #19  
Old   
Muzza's Avatar
Muzza Offline
 
Posts: 324
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Long live HIH. <3
03-18-2011 , 03:02 AM


Quote:
Originally Posted by Orange Soda King View Post
I don't have much authority/expertise on this knowledge, but I have heard that hunting helps with population control and balance of animals in the environment. For example, if there are too many deer, than whatever the consume may be eaten all up.

As for dogs and cats... Certain animals in our society more domestic than others, and generally we are less inclined to kill them than animals we hunt.
Deer don't need population control, people need population control.

Really 7 billion froodlenutzkieing people?

So I say away with human rights and in with animal rights.

  #20  
Old   
laser's Avatar
laser Offline
 
Posts: 2,479
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
03-18-2011 , 05:51 AM


Things usually turn out best if you just leave them alone...

 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Skin modified for HIH by Ducain


HIH : Halo 1, Halo 2, and Halo 3 forum, fansite, tricks, glitches, and videos - Privacy Statement - Top
no new posts